Thinking Globally and Acting Locally: An Interview

“When you deconstruct a regime and you don’t have anything to put in its place you create a lot of chaos.”    — Greg Guma, 2017 

In 2017, I was interviewed by the Peace Economy Project about corporate globalization, the rise of Donald Trump, the decline of America, and how Vermont communities have responded to past challenges. The Project’s mission is to research military spending and advocate for a more stable, peaceful economy. The interview focused specifically on the relevance of analysis in my 2003 book, Uneasy Empire: Repression, Globalization, and What We can Do, but also referenced my work for peace and justice through journalism, essays, politics and civic activism over several decades. 

A resident of Burlington, Vermont for more than 40 years at the time, I had previously edited the Vermont Vanguard Press from 1978 to 1982, published syndicated columns in the 1980s and 90s, and edited Toward Freedom, a progressive publication on global affairs, from the mid-90s to 2004. In 2000, I organized one of the first independent media conferences and in 2006 became CEO of Pacifica Radio. 

Question: In “Uneasy Empire” you talked about the growth of an American Empire and the dominance of organizations like the North American Free Trade Agreement, the World Trade Organization and huge corporations in that empire. You see corporate globalization as crushing the power of the individual and placing it in the hands of transnational corporations and governing bodies that work on their behalf. Are you saying something about scale in our economy?

“Scale is an issue on a number of levels,” I said. “The world government we see around us seems to be in a period of realignment, and some of the old architecture is being taken down. Uneasy Empire offers a globalist perspective. There are many problems that transcend national solutions. A global governance regime to handle this would be very big, but the real issues are access and accountability. Donald Trump is currently trying to establish an alliance of rogue states. He’s also continuing a long-term centralization of power, even though it’s based on ad-hoc relationships among power groups.

        “Some of Trump’s paranoia about China is sincere. There are problems posed by China’s rise, but the models that dominated in the past have been threatened by corporate globalization. This scares many people. There was a challenge more than 15 years ago to all of this (beginning with the Seattle WTO protests). It reached a high water mark before 9/11. Since then there has been a populist upheaval in response to the forces that control our lives and this in turn has led to a resurgence in authoritarianism. 

        “It often seems like the United Nations is irrelevant in all of this. But there is a chance for a democratic globalist solution if we reform those institutions. The authoritarian model is destined to fail.” 

During the interview, I noted that President Donald Trump’s nationalist-populist style of politics and the left leaning supporters of Senator Bernie Sanders, who had run for President in 2017, were both reacting against the type of globalism that only benefited corporate America. However, I argued that Trump’s administration was accelerating this trend.

“Trump’s regime is radical,” I said. “He’s letting many positions go unfilled and putting people in charge of agencies who want to destroy them. There has been an increase in smaller wars in the past 30 years. This helps companies associated with the defense industry and defense contractors. Going forward, I think we’ll see more small wars, environmental refugees and competition for resources. We know we need to establish bonds in our communities and build a different future, but right now we are stuck psychologically.”

Question: I’ll bet you feel the military-industrial complex is very much a part of the trends you are talking about in “Uneasy Empire: Repression, Globalization and What We Can Do?”

“The U.S. as a declining hegemon, and will become more of a mercenary state. We have matured as a global power. We once used soft power solutions like the Marshall Plan, aide and trade, but now we’re moving more and more toward military solutions. The US was considered a good partner in the past and there was more mutual respect. But Trump is accelerating a trend that would have happened anyway: He’s making us untrustworthy.

“Nation building is not something we do anymore. The American empire advanced through diplomacy and trade. Now we have a small arms race going on. We see the transfer of weapons to other countries and more arms proliferation. When you deconstruct a regime and you don’t have anything to put in its place you create a lot of chaos. This is a phenomena of growth and decay. We’re seeing it now in the decay of the corporate global system. Something will need to be built in its wake.”

Question: Now that we’ve heard the bad part, what do you recommend to combat the trends you’ve dissected?

“It’s going to happen at the local level. It’s good to have an eye on the big picture, but where we should spend our effort is where we live and where we can see change occur. This was a lesson I lived in Burlington, Vermont. In doing the peace work we did, we thought we would improve our lives. We were able to change the local culture and also have a ripple effect that changed the state.”

Since the late 1960s, the interviewer noted, Vermont citizens had created an economy with a strong local flavor. There were consumer cooperatives, community based agriculture projects, local businesses, alternative media outlets and social action oriented non-profits in the state. People worked on the local level for a new type of economy, creating something better.

“We had an influx of new people in the 60s and 70s,” I said. “Then you see this proliferation of activity around the environmental movement and the peace movement. We pushed agendas at town meetings. Vermont has a strong tradition when it comes to Town Meeting, and we used it to put peace proposals onto the ballot. This gave people a model to look at and led to a more tolerant, open culture. You can create something local that will spread.”

Question: I’ve heard people talk about thinking globally and acting locally. Can this work for those trying to create a more peaceful world?

“We did it here in Vermont. What we did was to use local initiatives to create something like our own foreign policy. We brought forward a series of initiatives to define what we wanted in a foreign policy. Local governments can have a big impact. We look stances on many issues. For example, we took an anti-interventionist stance on Latin America, opposed apartheid, and formed groups to educate citizens on these issues. We also had Sister City programs to promote tolerance and understanding. If you do this over a period of years it starts to change consciousness.”

In addition to working in journalism, in the 1980s I owned a bookstore that was often used as a hub of social activism and served as coordinator of Burlington’s Peace and Justice Center, a leading activist group during that period. Looking back, I recalled the effectiveness of the 1980s nuclear freeze movement. City councils in Vermont, and later around the country, passed resolutions promoting a freeze in the number of nuclear weapons in the US nuclear arsenal. I noted that a similar effort would still be effective in the movement to ban nuclear weapons. 

“The circumstances are totally different now due to the freeze movement of the 80s,” I noted. “People’s ideas on nuclear arms changed. Even Ronald Reagan changed his mind. This was a real victory for the peace movement.”

The original interview:

https://peaceeconomyproject.org/wordpress/thinking-globally-and-acting-locally-an-interview-with-greg-guma/?cat=7

The Trials of Celia — a touching slice of American life

 “A unique and unknown side-story of American history, researched brilliantly, told beautifully.”                   — Jim DeFilippi

“Guma has brought a troubled but touching slice of American history to life.”                                                                    — Kirkus Reviews

A New Novel

Available November 26, 2025

Celia Mudd began life as a slave. But in 1902, Sam Lancaster — once her master — made her the main beneficiary of his will. Now she could own the Kentucky farm on which she has lived — as servant and employee — for more than 40 years. 

But first she has to defend her inheritance. During a controversial trial, she faces Robert Lancaster, who claims the land is rightfully his and, before dying, his brother must have been incompetent, insane or seduced to make such a gift.

Based on a true story, using trial transcripts, letters and personal reflections, The Trials of Celia reveals how two families — one free and white, another enslaved and black — became intertwined after their arrival in America 200 years before. Against the backdrop of the 1903 trial, it focuses on four decades — from 1862 to the early 20th century — moving back and forth, exploring social dynamics during the Civil War, how emancipation created fresh challenges, conflicting courtroom testimony, and the complex relationships between Celia,  Ann Lancaster — the white woman who educated her, and the brothers who struggled over control of the land they all loved.

The Trials of Celia is an engaging historical mystery and a moving family drama of struggle, deceit, faith, guilt and reconciliation.

“The relationship between Celia and Sam is well handled in all its contradictions. There are two people bound by their time and place but tentatively reaching out to each other. Racism rules that society like a despotic god, but for once basic decency—and something very much like love—wins out.”                             

— Kirkus Reviews    

Zoom Video Interview: Blue Smoke and Black Ink with Jim DeFilippi      

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Embracing Change: Introduction to Dionysian Leadership

Dionysian leadership is an alternative to traditional, rational management styles that are overly reliant on certainty and control. Based on the philosophical opposition between the Apollonian (rational, orderly) and Dionysian (intuitive, creative), the approach prioritizes metaphorical thinking and inspiration over rigid logic. 

Core Concepts

Intuition and inspiration: Dionysian leaders use artistic and intuitive methods to stimulate engagement and encourage productivity. This approach is a way to create humane and inspired organizations that move beyond blind rationality.

Metaphorical thinking: This method combines sense experience with reflection, concentrating on spontaneity rather than abstract thought alone. The goal is discovery, not merely definition.

Creativity and chaos: Rationalist leaders exaggerate the threat of chaos to deny humanity's potential for inspiration and joy. Dionysian leadership, in contrast, engages with the spontaneous and creative rather than suppressing it.

Contrast with traditional management: The Dionysian approach is a counterpoint to the dominance of narcissistic leaders, myopic technicians, and calculating bureaucrats. 

                                                              Sources

The theory and approach were developed by Greg Guma and detailed in the 2023 book, Prisoners of the Real: World Disorder, Rational Management and Dionysian Leadership. Guma’s earlier writings and time in leadership roles, such as with Pacifica Radio, inform the approach. 

A 1991 radio program, "Prisoners of the Real: From Here to Paradise," presented the ideas with music for the World Scene radio series. Some of the thinking was presented in a 2012 VTDigger series, "Maverick Chronicles." 

Dionysian leadership is not a set of prescribed behaviors but a mindset emphasizing intuition and metaphorical thinking over rigid, rational processes. Since it is primarily a conceptual framework rather than a restrictive methodology, it is best understood through examples of a leader's actions and mindset in practice. 

Thinkers connected with Dionysian leadership often interpret the concept through the lens of philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, who established the Apollonian and Dionysian. Since then, others have explored related themes of instinct, chaos, and transcendence in leadership, including some in modern organizational theory and critical philosophy. Albert Szent-Györgyi, the Nobel laureate biochemist, applied Nietzsche's duality to distinguish between different types of scientists. The model of transformational leadership discussed by Bernard M. Bass exhibits Dionysian traits through its emphasis on inspirational leadership. And Otto Rank, the early psychoanalyst, connected the hero myth to psychological universals related to a Dionysian understanding of leadership.

The Dionysian Approach to Leadership

Organizational restructuring

• Rational approach: An Apollonian leader would analyze a business's revenue and market share, identify redundancies, and implement a top-down restructuring plan to maximize efficiency.

• Dionysian approach: A Dionysian leader first focuses on the emotional and cultural impact of the change. Instead of starting with spreadsheets, they might use a metaphor, like calling the change "an expedition into the unknown." This frames the uncertainty as an adventure to inspire curiosity rather than fear. They would engage employees by asking how they feel about the missiion and journey, what supplies they need, and what role they want to play. This participatory process encourages buy-in and creativity instead of simply imposing a new structure. 

Team innovation

• Rational approach: A leader provides a team with a detailed brief outlining a specific problem and a set of rules for brainstorming solutions. Innovation is expected to follow a predictable process with measurable outcomes.

• Dionysian approach: A leader might instead pose an open-ended, metaphorical question, like "How can we create an experience for our customers that feels like a 'home-cooked meal'?" This inspires a more holistic, emotional perspective on the problem. The leader embraces the "chaos" of free-flowing, intuitive ideas and encourages the team to build on each other's spontaneous thoughts. Instead of managing a linear process, the leader facilitates the creative flow, allowing the final innovation to emerge organically. 

Conflict resolution

• Rational approach: A traditional leader views conflict as a logical problem to be solved with rational discourse and defined processes. The goal is to enforce policy and restore order.

• Dionysian approach: A Dionysian leader recognizes that conflict often has an emotional or relational root, not just a logical one. The leader's primary move is to listen deeply to the stories and underlying feelings of those involved, rather than focusing on the objective facts of the disagreement. To find common ground, the leader encourages the parties to co-create a new, shared narrative for their future, rather than simply analyzing the past. This "relational mindset" helps rebuild trust and shifts the focus to sustainable solutions. 

Examples within Greg Guma's career

As a journalist and leader of organizations like Pacifica Radio, Guma challenged rational, profit-driven approaches to media. He championed independent voices and grassroots organizing, prioritizing community engagement and authentic expression over a purely managerialist or ratings-driven strategy. His career reflects a sustained Dionysian effort to disrupt the rationalist management that he critiques in his later writings. 

Encouraging Creative Chaos

Some companies allow for unstructured creativity and experimentation, trusting that great ideas can emerge from non-linear processes. 

• 3M: Known for its "15% rule," 3M historically allowed technical employees to dedicate 15% of their time to independent, self-directed projects. This unstructured time has famously led to innovations like the Post-it Note.

• Google: Similar to 3M, Google's "20% Time" policy encouraged engineers to spend a portion of their workweek on personal projects, which led to the creation of products like Gmail and Google Maps.

• Atlassian: This software company holds a quarterly "ShipIt" hackathon, where employees can work on any project they are passionate about. This provides a low-pressure environment to test new ideas and technologies.

• Zappos: The online retailer's core values include being "adventurous, creative, and open-minded." Its customer service representatives are not required to follow scripts, empowering them to use intuition and creativity to "wow" customers.

• Celonis: The software company encourages "side projects," with employees allowed to spend up to 20% of their time on personal projects to foster "out-of-the-box" thinking and ownership. 

Decentralized Leadership

In these examples, leadership is not fixed but circulates based on context and expertise. Authority is diffused among independent professionals who unite around a shared purpose. 

• Professional service firms and clinics: In organizations like medical practices, law firms, and architectural firms, the structure is designed to support the autonomy of its skilled professionals, not the other way around. Managers exist to handle administrative tasks, with decision-making left to the professionals who cooperate to achieve their individual and collective goals.

• Creative agencies (e.g., Wieden+Kennedy): Highly creative ad agencies depend on the individual talents and intuitive instincts of their creatives. They cultivate a culture where professionals can "run wild" with ideas and are not restricted by rigid corporate structures. In this environment, leaders step forward temporarily to champion a vision, but authority flows to those with the best ideas. 

Using Intuition

While most businesses rely on data-driven decisions, some famous successes have been guided by a leader's intuitive convictions, a core element of Dionysian thinking. 

• SpaceX: Elon Musk's long-term vision for making humanity a multi-planetary species and developing reusable rockets was initially seen as far-fetched. His intuitive conviction drove the company to pursue this path, ultimately making reusable rocketry a reality.

• Airbnb: The founders intuitively sensed that people would be willing to stay in another person's home and built the platform based on this belief, rather than relying on market research alone.

• Netflix: CEO Reed Hastings relied on his "deep, unstructured contemplation" and intuition to pursue groundbreaking ideas like streaming and original content, rather than only following a spreadsheet-driven plan. 

Dionysian leadership uses metaphorical thinking and intuition to move beyond linear, rational analysis toward a more creative and insightful understanding of an organization and its challenges. This approach contrasts with the Apollonian or purely logical style of management. 

Intuition is a leader's "inner compass," a gut feeling derived from past experience and subconscious pattern recognition. It helps Dionysian leaders navigate uncertainty and make more grounded decisions. 

Practical applications of intuition include:

• Reading the emotional landscape: A leader's intuition can sense when a team is misaligned or when a message is not resonating. For example, by being present in a meeting, a leader might have a gut feeling that "something is off" with the group dynamic.

• Foreseeing unseen opportunities: Intuition can help leaders recognize new patterns or identify potential opportunities before the data explicitly shows them. This is especially valuable in complex situations with incomplete information.

• Making faster decisions: In fast-paced environments, a strong, experience-based gut feeling can allow leaders to make confident choices without becoming paralyzed by over-analysis.

• Guiding team behavior: Intuition informs decisions that build trust and guide teams through change. Leaders can sense what people need before it is explicitly said, which fosters stronger connections.

• Cultivating presence and self-awareness: To effectively use intuition, leaders must first tune into themselves. Mindfulness and self-reflection help separate genuine gut feelings from fear or bias, allowing for a clearer, more intentional response. 

Metaphorical Thinking

Metaphorical thinking is a tool for communicating, connecting, and reframing problems in a more creative way. It allows leaders to condense complex information into a more tangible form and inspire new perspectives. 

Examples of metaphorical thinking in action:

• Creating shared vision: Leaders can use powerful metaphors to communicate a compelling vision for their organization. For instance, rather than listing a set of goals, a leader could describe the company as being on a "journey" to a new land, emphasizing the importance of perseverance and collaboration.

• Reframing challenges: Metaphors help reframe difficult situations in a more manageable and inspiring way. Instead of being "under siege" from competitors, an organization could be "learning to surf a new wave" of change, shifting the mindset from a defensive one to an adaptable one.

• Analyzing organizational culture: As Gareth Morgan's work on organizational metaphors illustrates, the metaphors that people use to describe their workplace reveal a great deal about the company culture. Listening for whether people describe the company as a "well-oiled machine" or "The Hunger Games" provides clues for a leader to identify cultural barriers.

• Simplifying complex information: Metaphors can make abstract technical specifications more understandable for a broader audience. For example, instead of listing features, a company can explain that their new product is like "trading in an old car for a new race car," making the benefits more relatable.

• Encouraging ownership: Leaders can use a person's interests or experiences as a metaphor to help them understand a new concept or skill. By relating a new responsibility to something the person already cares about, they feel more ownership over their growth

Building on metaphorical thinking and intuition, Dionysian leadership incorporates other key skills to challenge conventional, purely rational management. These skills are designed to foster creativity, adapt to change, and inspire deep engagement among team members. 

Philosophical Roots

Related to Friedrich Nietzsche’s concept of the Dionysian spirit, dionysian leadership is characterized by embracing intuition over pure rationality, emphasizes a willingness to shatter norms, and seeks a primal unity. In modern workplaces, this translates to organizations that emphasize aesthetics, strong corporate culture, deep collaboration, and a meaningful, relational approach to customer experience, focusing on long-term sustainability. For individuals, a Dionysian approach involves embracing the unpredictable nature of life and cultivating a connection to one's instincts and primal self to overcome nihilism. 

Key Skills

Embracing and fostering chaos 

Unlike the Apollonian leader who seeks to impose order and control, a Dionysian leader understands that creative breakthroughs often emerge from a state of temporary disorder. 

• Encouraging risk-taking: This involves creating a psychologically safe environment where team members feel comfortable challenging assumptions and pursuing unconventional ideas without fear of failure.

• Breaking fixedness: It means intentionally moving away from familiar, established solutions and patterns of thinking to explore new perspectives. This requires leaders to encourage "what if" scenarios and explore how different industries or personas might solve a problem. 

Developing emotional intelligence

Dionysian leaders use empathy to connect with their teams on a human level, which is essential for understanding motivations, managing conflict, and building strong, trusting relationships. 

• Deep listening: This goes beyond simply hearing words. It involves listening for unspoken cues and emotional undertones to better understand the team's needs and concerns, especially during periods of uncertainty.

• Empathy-informed decisions: Leaders who practice empathy make decisions that are not only based on logic but also on a deep understanding of the impact on people. This leads to more inclusive and relevant solutions. 

Cultivating adaptability and presence

In an unpredictable world, Dionysian leaders prioritize flexibility and presence, allowing them to remain agile in the face of constant change. 

• Mindfulness: By practicing mindfulness, leaders can remain focused on the present moment, which strengthens their ability to read the energy in a room and respond thoughtfully rather than reactively.

• Flexibility with strategy: Rather than clinging to a rigid plan, Dionysian leaders stay focused on a core vision while remaining flexible with the tactics used to achieve it. This allows for course correction and pivoting as needed. 

Facilitating and inspiring action

Dionysian leadership is less about direct control and more about empowering and inspiring others. 

• Communicating with vision: These leaders communicate a compelling, outcome-focused vision that energizes and aligns the team. When a vision is strong, employees can take ownership and make decisions that move the organization forward.

• Empowering agency: By decentralizing control and fostering autonomy, leaders allow team members to take initiative and solve problems appropriate to their level. This not only builds confidence but also makes the entire group more resilient. 

Prioritizing continuous learning

Dionysian leaders frame new situations not as threats to an existing system but as opportunities for growth and discovery. 

• "Learn-it-all" mindset: Instead of feeling pressured to have all the answers, a Dionysian leader adopts a "learn-it-all" attitude. This models curiosity and experimentation for the team.

• Learning from failure: Errors are reframed as valuable feedback. This helps to overcome the fear of failure that can stifle innovation in more traditional, Apollonian-leaning cultures.

Limitations and Risks

While Dionysian leadership promotes creativity and agility, its embrace of chaos and intuition presents significant practical challenges for organizations. The model stands in stark contrast to conventional, Apollonian approaches that are valued for their predictable, rational structures, making it difficult to implement in some corporate environments. 

Ambiguity and loss of control

• Balancing creative freedom and goals: A core challenge lies in balancing creative freedom with clear organizational goals. Leaders must find a way to let go of absolute control while still guiding the organization toward its objectives, requiring careful management to avoid inefficiency and discontent.

• Mismanaging chaos: While a Dionysian approach sees chaos as a source of creativity, there is a risk that this can devolve into unmanageable disorder. Instead of inspiration, it could lead to confusion and communication breakdowns as employees struggle with conflicting expectations.

• Absence of formal authority: In a pure Dionysian environment, leadership is a distributed capacity that emerges through interaction rather than being assigned to one person. This lack of a clear, permanent leader can lead to a vacuum of authority, resulting in a lack of accountability and direction. 

Employee and culture-based hurdles

• Dependency on trust: A decentralized, Dionysian-style culture can only function if there is a high level of trust among employees. Without it, people may fear judgment or blame, discouraging them from taking initiative. Building this deep trust requires greater transparency and open disagreement, which many organizations are not prepared for.

• Incompatibility with existing culture: Most large organizations have entrenched "Apollonian" cultures that value order, logic, and hierarchy. Introducing a Dionysian approach to such a system can lead to significant cultural confusion and internal resistance from those who prefer stability.

• Uneven employee integration: A transition to a Dionysian model can create inequality between employees who thrive in this creative, flexible environment and those who struggle without clear structure. This disparity can harm morale and cohesion. 

Practical and structural drawbacks

• Poorly defined processes: An emphasis on spontaneous, emergent creativity means that a standardized, predictable process is less valued. While this can lead to innovative breakthroughs, it can also disrupt project workflows and prevent consistent, predictable outcomes.

• Risk management difficulties: A leadership style that embraces uncertainty and risk-taking stands in contrast to the principles of systematic risk management. It can be difficult to manage a portfolio of projects with highly unpredictable outcomes and accurately forecast results.

• Challenges in scaling: The flat, autonomous structure of a Dionysian organization is often found in smaller, project-based teams. It can be challenging to scale this model effectively as an organization grows, which typically requires more formal control and coordination. 

Most companies don't adopt a pure Dionysian leadership model, but rather incorporate elements of its principles to foster creativity, intuition, and decentralized authority. These practices are most often found in specific departments like R&D, and in smaller startups or creative agencies, which are more resilient to the "chaos" that the model embraces. 

“The Dionysian leader is an idealist system-changer who uses an ability to move inside of what she sees in order to inspire others and herself. Posing challenges for choice, she widens the boundaries of experience, accepts the timeliness of activities, harmonizes the system with the environment by changing both, observes perceptions of others and promotes satisfaction toward the end of invention.”    

— from Prisoners of the Real

— This summary is based on the book, Prisoners of the Real and other writings by Greg Guma, with the assistance of artificial intelligence tools.